Mindless rambling...

[ostarella]

Just taking a little break from my rewrites, and I was thinking about Forest, and I looked over at the ten stories I have over at ff.net. So strange. Forest is one of my personal favorites, along with the Randy set, but that doesn't seem to be the case over there. The hands down favorite is Neverness. Forest comes in at number 8; Changeling is dead last (and by a *huge* margin), and Mon Bell Ami is 6th. Covenant, thank goodness, has been coming in 2nd for some time now; I'm almost having a competition in my head between that and Neverness  :D

It's just odd, I guess. Thinking about what my favorites are, versus what readers (at least on ff.net) seem to prefer. And why they prefer the ones they do.

Makes one have a little more sympathy for publishers.  ;-)

Comments

[billy-shriner.livejournal.com]

I think it's a little down to word count. My Hard Targets is in the lead (although Four Wishes is second now...but I think that helped that I switched the rating). But HTs is only 16,000 words.

Maybe it is the summary, too. Maybe that is the important key - or the first chapter?

I did take a look at your site the other day, and looked at the Changling, but saw the chapters and thought I'd leave it for another day ;o) (I don't think I'd quite finished Four Wishes either). But popped on last night, after Bev saying about Forest and well, could help but start reading ;o)

[ostarella.livejournal.com]

Yeah, one has to consider the length. A lot of people either aren't interested in "epics" and others, like yourself, just haven't had time to sit down for a long read.

Summaries are something I really need to take more seriously, I think. Although I wonder how many people really read them other than to see if it's something they just don't want to read, like slash, or death fics, or something like that. I don't pay that much attention to them, myself, except for those kinds of things. I want to know if it's the type of story I'm in the mood for, I guess. But I think it's the first chapter that's more important - if people don't get "hooked" after reading that, they won't come back.

[billy-shriner.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's not that I don't like long stories...I do, but I need to know I have the time to read them ;o)

I think summaries are quite important. I do read them before reading a fic. Although saying that, I don't really read much fanfic other than that that goes on the ATSB (or on here now ;o)) Again, it's time!

[beckyblack]

It's fun to do a bit of analysis and try to figure it out. :D

My top three over there are: A Brace of Drabbles (Maybe people like to dip in for bite sized chunks, Cabin Fever and A Choice of Nightmares. Then there's a big drop of nearly half tha number of hits to Unjust Desserts. (Though that's doing well, given that it's been on there less time than ACON or CF.

I never put Reunion on there, so I don't have stats for that, darn it.

Looking at what's been favourited by people the most, Cabin Fever come joint top along with - of all things - Twin Souls, the daft little short story where Murdock gives his theory that socks are reincarnated souls of star crossed lovers and sometimes they merge in the laundry and become one. (That's where the missing socks go.) People seem to like that one.

Most reviewed is definitely still Cabin Fever. It was wild when I was posting that, some people were reviewing every chapter as it came out, which isn't that usual on there.

[ostarella.livejournal.com]

The review thing is really strange. Neverness, although it's by far the most read, has fewer reviews than Covenant, and that's not anywhere near finished. And my little collection of challenge responses has as many reviews as Friendship's Choice.

[beckyblack]

So, that makes me think, when you're writing how much do you worry about how popular or not the story is likely to be? Do you worry about using elements you think might put people some off? Do you try to add in things that lots of people like. "Hmm, where can I fit in Face getting shot in this story? Ah, there, right after the scene where he takes his shirt off, for no apparent reason!" Not that I ever have Face take his shirt off or get shot gratuitously.

I mean we should always be thinking of the reader all the time in the sense that we're trying to make the story clear and interesting to them, but in addition to writing it as well as we can, do we think about trying to appeal to the most readers possible? To be more "commercial", for want of a better word?

[billy-shriner.livejournal.com]

I think you should write your bunnies as you have them in your head, but obviously consider what's going to be interesting to a reader, to keep them reading (twists and turns in the plot etc. especially with longer stories) They are your bunnies. Obviously, if something gets *flagged* in the WIP / Draft stages, that isn't sitting right with the majority of the readers (this is good when you have quite a few comments from different readers on the ATSB) then, you should look at the *issue*.

That being said, the writer should be at least keeping them in character etc. etc. etc. otherwise, technically, it's not A-Team fanfiction ;o)

There are so many different readers out there with different tastes, so I think your story is going to be liked by someone (hopefully). If it's a good story, well written etc. etc. then it will get read. But I do wonder if the word count is an issue.

FW's has over 1400 hits on the first chapter, then it drops off to 100-200 there after. Looking at it at the moment, chapter 27 has 71 hits...so do I assume 71 people have read it all the way through. It amazes me how some chapters have more hits than chapters before...why would you do that?

[ostarella.livejournal.com]

I wonder about the "hit count" per chapter myself. It amazes me how many people will read the first seven chapters, than skip four and start in all over again with chapter 12 LOL But yeah, I don't think it's unusual for the first chapter to have mega hits, and then see the next chapters drop off dramatically. As I said earlier, if the first chapter doesn't catch them, most likely they won't read further. Which if fine - that first chapter tells them whether it's a story they have any interest in reading. I think I'm going to revise my comment about the first chapter catching them, in that if the second and subsequent chapters drop down to almost nothing, then you know you have a problem. So maybe it's the second chapter that's more telling than the first.

Oh, I'm getting a headache! Too much analyzing!! LOL

[beckyblack]

I think on fanfiction as well, unless you remember to hit the >> thing to go to the latest chapter, then you have to go to chapter 1 to get to the rest of the chapters. And unless you're always up to date with a new story you may not want the latest chapter, so would go to 1 to get to the dropdown menu. So it would e normal to see a much bigger hit count on chapter 1, then a big drop. It doesn't mean that all those people stopped reading it!

[ostarella.livejournal.com]

Hadn't thought of that. Duh...

[billy-shriner.livejournal.com]

Neither had I! doh!

[ostarella.livejournal.com]

I think it's kind of a mix - like Billy said, it's your story, but if people aren't reading it, is it because it was poorly written, or just because it only has appeal to a small group?

This is probably going to sound very pompous, but I don't think, really, that good stories necessarily get read more than bad ones; it's more that there are more readers who want cheesy crap with their particular favorite "element" rather than a well-written story that doesn't have it. Like you said, JFM - the gratiutous torture, injury, "exposure" ;-) I don't want to pick on slash again, but it is a great example of that. WARNING - WILD GENERALIZATION: People don't care if the story is sloppily written or has no plot or the guys are OC - they just want the sloppy affection and graphic sex.

I think, over time, readers find their favorite authors, and authors gain their own base. If you continue to work at putting out an overall well-written story, your fan base will remain, and gradually grow. But I think too many writers do worry about being "commercial". I was reading an article the other day, and it stated, quite unequivocally, that the vast majority of "professional" writers cannot live solely on their earnings from writing. Unless you're a Rowlings or Kellerman, you'd best keep your day job ;-) So if even good, professional writers can't make a living at it, why should we worry *that much* about pleasing the readers? If we can give a few readers the "classics", should we worry about the (possible) majority of readers who are looking for "comic books"?

There - I said it would sound pompous. :D

[beckyblack]

it's more that there are more readers who want cheesy crap with their particular favorite "element" rather than a well-written story that doesn't have it.

That's a good point. I'm not keen on romantic fics, and like a bit of hurt/comfort. So if faced with a really well written romance and a not so well written hurt/comfort story, which would I read? Or read first at least! :D

It might depend on what kind of badly written it was. Bad characterisation and I wouldn't bother with it (it's Face I wanna see suffering, not what's effectively someone else played by the same actor. Well, unless it's Starbuck.) But if it's just some bad spelling and grammar I might get past it.

So if even good, professional writers can't make a living at it, why should we worry *that much* about pleasing the readers?

That's at least one fun thing about doing fanfic, or indeed original that you just post up online, you can write whatever you like! If you were writing for an actual show and turned in a script where the male leads suddenly discover they fancy the pants off each other, you'd be out on your ear. If nobody is paying you, you can do what you like and write anything. (Actually pulling it off and making it work is another thing!)

[ostarella.livejournal.com]

If nobody is paying you, you can do what you like and write anything.

Ah, the double-edged sword of the internet. We can write what we want, good or bad - but the haters of fanfic in general will always pull the bad stuff out as examples of why we're not "legit" :p

[bevimoo.livejournal.com]

Actually I don't think thats pompous at all. I totally agree. I'm as guilty as the next person, really. When I started reading fanfic (Starsky and Hutch originally, boy did I get a shock when I discovered slash! :o )I wanted Starsky h/c. And that's it. I'm sorry, I'm a sucker for tall, dark and handsome men in distress. :D When I moved onto TAT fics I did exactly the same thing, Murdock h/c. The great thing with TAT, though, is that there is much more fic available, so you get the luxury of being choosy. And as I spent my weeks plowing through it all I realised that not all fanfic was poor to average in quality, with little to no plot. There were actually talented writers who chose to construct wonderful plots and intricate stories around our favourite foursome. Not only that, the team were just like they are in the show, just even more rounded, more detailed.

But thats TAT. I know from reading other fandoms that we're lucky. There's a lot of shit out there. That sounds rude, and I don't mean for a second to imply that my own work is brilliant, not for a second. Just that, as an avid reader, I can distinguish between whats good and what isn't. A lot of it is writers with some particular fixation, be it gay sex, torture, whatever, which they then hang a very thin plot onto. Torture, particularly in reference to the POW camp, seems to be a favourite with readers and writers. Somehow people have it in their head that if you put the characters in this horrible situation, well, that's it. What more story do you need? That's what is so wonderful about Reunion. It's not a torture fic. If that had been written by a typical fanficer, Murdock would have been a weeping wreck by the end of the third chapter. As it is, he is strong enough to get through horrible humiliations, and to help Hannibal face up to his own suffering.

My point (I think I have one... ) is that in a fandom where the quality is below par, readers will except what they're offered. And for the most part they will enjoy it. We're all a little spoilt too because we're used to reading fics on the ATSB, a place which by it's very nature inspires people to improve their work and strive to be better writers. Fanfiction.net doesn't share that culture, it's all about throwing it all out there.

I think I lost the plot with that rambling nonsense after the second sentence. Ignore me, I'm talking rubbish again. :)

[ostarella.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's rubbish. I do think we're lucky with TAT, but maybe because it's been around longer (talking fanfic here). I haven't read Trek stuff, but I would assume that the quality there has also improved over the years, as with other fanfic that has gone through its growing pains. (And that shouldn't be construed to denigrate fanon at all.) And I think as the fandom has grown up, and new readers have come in, they've gravitated to the more "polished" works, and demanded higher quality.

Newer fandoms are still in that "Oh, wow, new stories!" period - readers are just happy to have stories out there. Eventually, if the fandom survives at all, it will also evolve more and better stories. I think they have to, because if they don't, after a while, people will get tired of the same-old, same-old, and go elsewhere. Or start writing themselves, striving for the quality they're looking for.

*Now* who's rambling? LOL

[billy-shriner.livejournal.com]

okay, neither of you were rambling...you made perfect sense to me ;o)

I don't think I read enough fanfic to really comment. Mostly I read what's put on the ATSB, or as much as I can with time allows. (I always worry I'm choosing favourites, and I wanted to try and read everyone's on there..but it's not always possible) and JFM's...just because she had her own site, the writing and stories are great and she writes pretty much the kind of stories I like to read. But I've found a new website I need to work through ;o) (Finished Forest Primeval last night...will email you!) ...which is good, coz I've pretty much read all of JFM's work now lol!

I have read enough to know that there is some crap out there... even to the point I've thought, blimey, even I can write better than this. And I by no means think my writing is that good ;o) and constantly worry that my plots are weak!

I do tune out a bit on Slash.

[ostarella.livejournal.com]

Slash is something that I absolutely refused to read at first. In fact, the very first fanfic I read was slash, but I didn't know what that meant - what a shock! LOL But then I thought, well, I'll take a look. And there were quite a few really good stories, and some that were pretty good if you swept over the slashy parts (that's where they seemed to lose it), and others that were just crap. But lately, even the good authors in it seem to have gotten stuck in a rut - I read a couple recently from an author that's usually pretty good, and I could practically tell the story before I read it. :(