ostarella | Discussion Two

And another one ;-)

1. What did you like (or dislike) in particular about this episode? What (if anything) about "Dishpan Man" do you think showed the team (individually or as a group) at their best? Or worst?

2. What's with the characterization with this episode? I mean, Face wears a safari jacket and does the driving, Murdock goes scrounging for food, and Hannibal acts like a ditz at the hospital. Musical chairs, anyone?

Putting these two together because they're clearly related for me. ;-)

Frankie, of course, was irritating. He's just the kind of person I would naturally steer clear of. At the same time, he was obviously very loyal to Hannibal, so you have to give him credit for that. He could've just walked away. I think if the writers had played that up a bit more, and toned down the stereotypical Loudmouth Latino, he might have been more palatable.

I was also surprised that BA took Frankie's advice about the gold - like BA wouldn't know how to clean it after all these years. And Face doing his own mechanical work on his car? I'm also surprised that no one on the team was watching out for Hannibal while he was in the hospital. Did the MPs magically disappear?

On the other hand, I did kinda like the airline hostage thing. Frankie was actually useful, and the rest of the guys were right on. I found Stockwell suddenly believing Captain Curtis, when obviously he had checked out the team thoroughly before, rather a slap-dash way of getting the team into military custody.

3. What oddities, plot holes, and/or glitches did you notice in "Dishpan Man"? Any missing scenes or throwaway lines that would be good starters for a story?

As mentioned above, Stockwell was an anamoly - he supposedly had all these resources on hand to investigate the team, but immediately believed Curtis enough to turn them over to the military. And Frankie's father - unless he was in a really chic hospital, Medicare would be paying for his bills and that's not something Stockwell could screw up very easily. At least not easily enough to make it worth doing just to keep Santana as his spy. I mean, Stockwell knew where the guys were going anyway.

5. What about angst? Who would feel it and why?

I think the writers should've worked the Stockwell decision much more. The guys, while reluctant, were a little too willing to accept it. I think a lot of good stuff could've been generated as they thought about what it would mean to the team and to them individually.

7. How has "Dishpan Man" influenced canon and fanon?

I don't know that this ep by itself had that much influence. More as a part of S5's overall influence, which unfortunately gave us a really Evil Stockwell and a choice of Evil Frankie or Bumbling Idiot Frankie, and I don't think any of those are really accurate. On the other hand, it did move us back to the team as SF, which was a welcome relief.

8. Any ideas for a better title for this episode?

"Déjà Vu", "Square One" - frankly, anything but the original. ;-)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

You know, I think somewhere I've discussed my theory.

But I think Stockwell was behind the lot (the hijacking is maybe not, maybe, - maybe he just got lucky) - so that he could get them into a trial, rescue them out of it, and then have a hold over them, to do his dirty work.

If he'd just gone up to them, as it was, Hannibal would never have worked for him. He needed something over them, and a carrot to dangle just in front of them, to guarantee they'd work for him.

That's kind of an interesting thought, actually. The trial being a test for them - if they could get out of it, they were "worthy" of the deal (pardons). If not, "justice" was done. And maybe that's why Frankie got roped in - by working with Murdock, he proved himself to Stockwell.

Guess that would definitely prove that Stockwell wasn't infallible...

Well, he says he won't help Hannibal, because then he'd be in trouble too, and he wouldn't help Murdock/Frankie, yet he did. They were good, but there was no way they'd be able to organise those pills and the doctors afterwards. He always wanted them to escape.

AND then telling them about that guy, the drug guy partner with Curtis. Stockwell set himself up, knowing they'd go after him (can't think of the guys name)...who's to say Stockwell hadn't paid him either, to say the right thing for Hannibal's ears. He knew how Hannibal worked, so he had to make Hannibal was going to Stockwell under his own terms.

I think Stockwell had a lot to play in that trial and everything. I think he set the whole thing up so that he'd get a prize.

I like to think Frankie was always a plant too, from the beginning. Found him on that filmset and paid him kindly to get close to Hannibal ;o)

Yeah, I think Stockwell was a lot more involved in everything than he appeared to be. What I could never understand was his statement that the team were murderers - he said something to that effect to Carla, and there was nobody else around to "impress". And why that late night visit to Hannibal in the stockade? 'Course, that's the next ep, isn't it? I get so confused...

But I 100% agree that Frankie was a plant from the start. So maybe all that loyalty wasn't loyalty to Hannibal...now I'm starting to dislike him all over again LOL

I've just been looking up an old email conversation I had with Therm about the hijacking, and the only conclusion I could draw is that Stockwell was involved with that. He's absolutely not surprised when Curtis accuses the guys, it's clearly set up to make them look like they took Curtis to murder him. So when did they get together to set that up? Was it a coincidence then that that Curtis suddenly ended up on a hijacked plane, just the sort of thing an unconventional Special Forces team might be able to resolve.

I'm certain that's the only logical conclusion. Either all of the hijackers are Stockwell's men, or one of them is, or he got intel the hijacking was about to happen and put Curtis on the plane. But that's risky if it was a real hijacking. What if he'd been shot? Would Curtis have been prepared to risk that? Of course the hijackers themselves are risking being killed too, so I think it makes most sense that most of them are real terrorists and Stockwell has a man inside to to steer them.

Anyway, if Stockwell is behind the hijack, and that ever came out, the fall out would be UNBELIEVABLE!

I'm going to have to review those eps again. I've gone over them to get the trial/bank robbery details, but I haven't really looked at them from the POV that Stockwell's maneuvering things. Another project for when Covenant's done - probably a good thing to do before getting back to Randy, too. ;-)

By the way, another thing that came up in that convo with Therm. Why does Stockwell leave Murdock behind in Spain?

Don't tell me he doesn't know about Murdock. At the very least Frankie likely told him. And then there's the people at the jet when they fly to Spain, and the pilot(s) of the plane. Stockwell knows Murdock is there. Yet he takes the others and leaves him behind. Does he not want to compromise Murdock's position at the VA? Does he want Murdock free for a reason? To help the team escape? If the escape is a test for the team, is it also a test for Murdock? Yet Stockwell also tries to keep Murdock away once they are at Langley, so does he want him with the team or not?

And how the hell does Murdock get home from Spain? Does he have his passport? Money? Don't say he swiped a plane. From Spain to the US? He'd have to swipe a 747 to get there without refuelling, and I can't see that happening. But a small plane needs refuelling, how would he manage that?

Well, he did his damndest to take over for Face during the rest of the season - maybe he practiced his conning with the airline that was hijacked, got a free lift? LOL

Murdock and Stockwell - that's a puzzle in and of itself. I might state, right now, that I did not care for Murdock during most of this season. Too much of that CIA crapola, I think. And he lost his fun. But I'll save the diatribe on that for later eps...But what Stockwell had in mind for him here...definitely a plot hole for us writers, because I think the show's writers just dropped the ball, made things too convoluted even for them to figure out.

maybe he practiced his conning with the airline that was hijacked, got a free lift? LOL

Yeah, it's probably a simple answer like that. Or that Colonel Morales helped him out without too many questions. Or maybe he repaired his autogyro and flew that home. Of course he'd have so many refuelling stops he'd have to go overland most of the way, so that would be up to the far end of the Soveiet Union, then just pray he had the fuel to make it across the Bering Straits to Alaska. ;-)

because I think the show's writers just dropped the ball, made things too convoluted even for them to figure out.

I'm pretty certain that's the case! It's a fun twist to have Curtis accuse them, but the whole setup doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

As mentioned above, Stockwell was an anamoly - he supposedly had all these resources on hand to investigate the team, but immediately believed Curtis enough to turn them over to the military.

That's what convinces me it's all a set up. Stockwell wouldn't care is they robbed the bank for themselves. He wouldn't care if they killed Morrison. He doesn't hand them over out of any kind of moral outrage. He can't even keep the smug smile off his face when he's saying it. He hands them over to get them where he wants them in the end, under his control.

True. Because just the threat of turning them in wouldn't phase any of the guys. But to actually be tried, convicted and on the verge of death - and then have Stockwell sitting there like a Cheshire cat, with the promise of making it all go away...the old "offer they can't refuse"...

Absolutely. They're in much deeper shit than before, and therefore dependent on him for protection too. (Hmm, he controls them and they're dependent on him. Better he careful that they don't start suffering from Stockwell Syndrome.)

He could have just said, come work for me and I'll figure out how to get you your pardons. And they might have said okay, but if they didn't like it they'd just buzz off and be no worse off than before. But not if they are to be "shot on sight."

Stockwell could be seen as proving himself to them too. If he's got the power to do all the stuff he's done, then he's probably got the power to get their pardons too, so sticking around is the best thing for them.

Good grief, Stockwell makes my brain hurt. Why does he have to do everything in such a complicated way? Of course, there's one possibility I don't think I've ever see explored; which is that he could be absolutely bat shit crazy. :D

I'll be writing Stockwell again soonish in Ship of Fools. I can't wait. He's so much fun!

Discussion Two

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